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	<title>Comments on: Rules for Radicals: Working within The System</title>
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	<link>http://www.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/</link>
	<description>Meditations on strategy and life</description>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8957</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8957</guid>
		<description>Look man, as far as I can tell the only thing we fundamentally disagree on is the value of conventional education.  From your responses it seems like you consider the sole purpose of going to college getting a degree and learning how to &quot;trade space for time&quot;.  Is that fair?  Also, what exactly do you mean by &quot;trade space for time&quot;?

In my view, there&#039;s actually a lot more available than a piece of paper and an ability to be aridly cerebral to appease authority. If I&#039;m going to take a philosophy class I try to take the material the professor offers to me and identify what is valuable for me in my life instead of just going through the logical motions to ensure that I get high marks. If I&#039;m taking an english class I&#039;ll hope to inform my own experience with the author&#039;s perspective, instead of just regurgitating the obvious answer so I can get full points.  It&#039;s not a question of either fighting a battle or retreating to fight another day - the world doesn&#039;t have to work that way.  It&#039;s about both fulfilling the requirements and making the experience something meaningful to me.

Yes, this may seem incredibly vague, but such is the difficulty of trying to communicate with inadequate symbols.  What I&#039;m trying to talk about  is reorganizing your priorities in such a way that the purpose of education isn&#039;t the &quot;end of the composition,&quot; the purpose is composing.  And, to be honest, I thought that was the same perspective you were coming from. I figured you should be alerted that your Spartan formula needed some adjustment; it was inconsistent with Cicero!  The further this discussion carries on, though, the more I begin to realize that I was probably reading a lot of your stuff through my own little prism of understanding.  And hey, that&#039;s fine too - who am I to criticize something I obviously don&#039;t fully understand anyway.  At this point I&#039;m just trying to understand where you&#039;re coming from.

As a side note, I just turned 21, and I&#039;ve never been engaged in any sort of &quot;battle&quot; with any of my professors.  Also, I haven&#039;t scored below a 93 on any paper since I started actually caring about my education a year or so ago - this doesn&#039;t give me any authority, I just say this to clarify the fact that I&#039;m not sacrificing anything grade-wise by doing the things I&#039;ve been talking about.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look man, as far as I can tell the only thing we fundamentally disagree on is the value of conventional education.  From your responses it seems like you consider the sole purpose of going to college getting a degree and learning how to &#8220;trade space for time&#8221;.  Is that fair?  Also, what exactly do you mean by &#8220;trade space for time&#8221;?</p>
<p>In my view, there&#8217;s actually a lot more available than a piece of paper and an ability to be aridly cerebral to appease authority. If I&#8217;m going to take a philosophy class I try to take the material the professor offers to me and identify what is valuable for me in my life instead of just going through the logical motions to ensure that I get high marks. If I&#8217;m taking an english class I&#8217;ll hope to inform my own experience with the author&#8217;s perspective, instead of just regurgitating the obvious answer so I can get full points.  It&#8217;s not a question of either fighting a battle or retreating to fight another day &#8211; the world doesn&#8217;t have to work that way.  It&#8217;s about both fulfilling the requirements and making the experience something meaningful to me.</p>
<p>Yes, this may seem incredibly vague, but such is the difficulty of trying to communicate with inadequate symbols.  What I&#8217;m trying to talk about  is reorganizing your priorities in such a way that the purpose of education isn&#8217;t the &#8220;end of the composition,&#8221; the purpose is composing.  And, to be honest, I thought that was the same perspective you were coming from. I figured you should be alerted that your Spartan formula needed some adjustment; it was inconsistent with Cicero!  The further this discussion carries on, though, the more I begin to realize that I was probably reading a lot of your stuff through my own little prism of understanding.  And hey, that&#8217;s fine too &#8211; who am I to criticize something I obviously don&#8217;t fully understand anyway.  At this point I&#8217;m just trying to understand where you&#8217;re coming from.</p>
<p>As a side note, I just turned 21, and I&#8217;ve never been engaged in any sort of &#8220;battle&#8221; with any of my professors.  Also, I haven&#8217;t scored below a 93 on any paper since I started actually caring about my education a year or so ago &#8211; this doesn&#8217;t give me any authority, I just say this to clarify the fact that I&#8217;m not sacrificing anything grade-wise by doing the things I&#8217;ve been talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Holiday</title>
		<link>http://www.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8956</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Holiday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8956</guid>
		<description>Matt,

How old are you? You&#039;re displaying the classics signs of someone who is looking to fight every single battle they can--when with a little maturity and perspective they would realize that it&#039;s better to focus on the battles that matter.

Here&#039;s the thing, at some point, you will run into an enemy that is too entrenched, too traditional and has to too much leverage on you and you will have to do things their way. At least, for a little while until you find away around it. If you&#039;ve never bother to learn how to do that, how to trade space for time, you will be utterly fucked.

Ever heard the saying &quot;never let schooling get in the way of your education&quot;? Essays are schooling. They just are not worth defying. It&#039;s not about changing subjects until you find a place where you like writing essays but understanding that generally, all essays are stupid and your time is better spent elsewhere (you know like in researching, reading, discussing, debating, free writing, attempting to solve problems, trying new things, meeting people, learning from the masters,  beating your head against a wall etc)

You think I don&#039;t know this from experience? Doing the best you can on something you shouldn&#039;t be doing is not noble, it&#039;s stupid. The paper format is a way for you to succeed within the system but not buy into it. Buying into it is suicide and so is outwardly rebelling against it--but using the system against itself is a way to negotiate while advancing.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt,</p>
<p>How old are you? You&#8217;re displaying the classics signs of someone who is looking to fight every single battle they can&#8211;when with a little maturity and perspective they would realize that it&#8217;s better to focus on the battles that matter.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the thing, at some point, you will run into an enemy that is too entrenched, too traditional and has to too much leverage on you and you will have to do things their way. At least, for a little while until you find away around it. If you&#8217;ve never bother to learn how to do that, how to trade space for time, you will be utterly fucked.</p>
<p>Ever heard the saying &#8220;never let schooling get in the way of your education&#8221;? Essays are schooling. They just are not worth defying. It&#8217;s not about changing subjects until you find a place where you like writing essays but understanding that generally, all essays are stupid and your time is better spent elsewhere (you know like in researching, reading, discussing, debating, free writing, attempting to solve problems, trying new things, meeting people, learning from the masters,  beating your head against a wall etc)</p>
<p>You think I don&#8217;t know this from experience? Doing the best you can on something you shouldn&#8217;t be doing is not noble, it&#8217;s stupid. The paper format is a way for you to succeed within the system but not buy into it. Buying into it is suicide and so is outwardly rebelling against it&#8211;but using the system against itself is a way to negotiate while advancing.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8955</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8955</guid>
		<description>I guess it&#039;s my fault then.  I must have missed you mentioning that you were writing exclusively for kids 17 and under.

I was trying to make an argument for students to actually do more than just the minimum - the &quot;standard one would find in any&quot; classroom.

I guess now I know where to turn for a &quot;cool&quot; variation on the &quot;standard&quot;.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess it&#8217;s my fault then.  I must have missed you mentioning that you were writing exclusively for kids 17 and under.</p>
<p>I was trying to make an argument for students to actually do more than just the minimum &#8211; the &#8220;standard one would find in any&#8221; classroom.</p>
<p>I guess now I know where to turn for a &#8220;cool&#8221; variation on the &#8220;standard&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://www.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8954</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8954</guid>
		<description>This paper is another way a 17 year old can be a radical:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://static.scribd.com/docs/iyf3q21g5duht.swf?INITIAL_VIEW=width&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://static.scribd.com/docs/iyf3q21g5duht.swf?INITIAL_VIEW=width&lt;/a&gt;

But I must admit that aside from the analogy to the Spartan square, which is cool, the paper format doesn&#039;t strike me as much different than the standard paper format one would find in any basic english textbook: present a thesis, give supporting arguments, and a conclusion.

Am I missing something?

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This paper is another way a 17 year old can be a radical:</p>
<p><a href="http://static.scribd.com/docs/iyf3q21g5duht.swf?INITIAL_VIEW=width" rel="nofollow">http://static.scribd.com/docs/iyf3q21g5duht.swf?INITIAL_VIEW=width</a></p>
<p>But I must admit that aside from the analogy to the Spartan square, which is cool, the paper format doesn&#8217;t strike me as much different than the standard paper format one would find in any basic english textbook: present a thesis, give supporting arguments, and a conclusion.</p>
<p>Am I missing something?</p>
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		<title>By: Art</title>
		<link>http://www.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8953</link>
		<dc:creator>Art</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8953</guid>
		<description>Oh, that was actually part of the creative writing, University has actually done quite a lot for me (forced me to develop my writing ability, leadership and speaking ability, hating it enough to develop the inner NECESSITY to find my passion) etc etc.

That said, if I get that &quot;opportunity&quot; (ala Ryan&#039;s big decision) to blow my way out of here towards my passion, I wouldn&#039;t skip a beat to do so.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, that was actually part of the creative writing, University has actually done quite a lot for me (forced me to develop my writing ability, leadership and speaking ability, hating it enough to develop the inner NECESSITY to find my passion) etc etc.</p>
<p>That said, if I get that &#8220;opportunity&#8221; (ala Ryan&#8217;s big decision) to blow my way out of here towards my passion, I wouldn&#8217;t skip a beat to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8952</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 17:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8952</guid>
		<description>&quot;Essays are annoying ... the key is to find the most efficient means of going through it.&quot;

Essays don&#039;t have to be annoying.  There is a field of study available at most universities for anyone who is willing to actually identify their interests and engage in their education.  If the essays you are assigned are just inherently a chore then you are probably in the wrong field of study.

I ran into this animation by the creators of South Park a few days ago that reminds me of this discussion (from my perspective, obviously):

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.freshminds.com/animation/alan_watts_life.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.freshminds.com/animation/alan_watts_life.html&lt;/a&gt;

&quot;In music one doesn&#039;t make the end of the composition the point of the composition.  If that were so, the best conductors would be those who played fastest.&quot;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Essays are annoying &#8230; the key is to find the most efficient means of going through it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Essays don&#8217;t have to be annoying.  There is a field of study available at most universities for anyone who is willing to actually identify their interests and engage in their education.  If the essays you are assigned are just inherently a chore then you are probably in the wrong field of study.</p>
<p>I ran into this animation by the creators of South Park a few days ago that reminds me of this discussion (from my perspective, obviously):</p>
<p><a href="http://www.freshminds.com/animation/alan_watts_life.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.freshminds.com/animation/alan_watts_life.html</a></p>
<p>&#8220;In music one doesn&#8217;t make the end of the composition the point of the composition.  If that were so, the best conductors would be those who played fastest.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8951</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8951</guid>
		<description>Of all the things I&#039;ve read on Rudius message boards and sites, that essay has done the best job for me of summarizing what it means to want to start a revolution of yourself. You pinpointed where the difference between someone who talks and someone who acts is most important: when they start to learn from the thing they want to rise above.

&quot;A true radical has to work within the system. If it is a system worth destroying, it is a powerful one. And the way to destroy a powerful enemy is to use it&#039;s own strength against it.&quot;

Really poignant stuff, man. Your blog is a very accessible place to learn what defining yourself really means.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of all the things I&#8217;ve read on Rudius message boards and sites, that essay has done the best job for me of summarizing what it means to want to start a revolution of yourself. You pinpointed where the difference between someone who talks and someone who acts is most important: when they start to learn from the thing they want to rise above.</p>
<p>&#8220;A true radical has to work within the system. If it is a system worth destroying, it is a powerful one. And the way to destroy a powerful enemy is to use it&#8217;s own strength against it.&#8221;</p>
<p>Really poignant stuff, man. Your blog is a very accessible place to learn what defining yourself really means.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Holiday</title>
		<link>http://www.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8950</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Holiday</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 15:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8950</guid>
		<description>Because unfortunately, that is not life. Often times to get what you want you have to wade through or wait through things you do not want. Degrees are important (not the most important, but still important) and there is some bullshit that comes along with those benefits. Once you&#039;ve weighed the costs and benefits and decided to pursue, the key is to find the most efficient means of going through it.

Essays are annoying and so was Driver&#039;s Ed, but I am not going to drop out of 11th Grade or swear off getting my license.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because unfortunately, that is not life. Often times to get what you want you have to wade through or wait through things you do not want. Degrees are important (not the most important, but still important) and there is some bullshit that comes along with those benefits. Once you&#8217;ve weighed the costs and benefits and decided to pursue, the key is to find the most efficient means of going through it.</p>
<p>Essays are annoying and so was Driver&#8217;s Ed, but I am not going to drop out of 11th Grade or swear off getting my license.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8949</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:00:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8949</guid>
		<description>But Art, if you&#039;re going to set your own terms absolutely why not enroll in a creative writing program, or some sort of writer&#039;s workshop?  If the University as a mode of education has really been &quot;inherently worthless&quot; for you, then you probably need to re-examine why you&#039;re there at all.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Art, if you&#8217;re going to set your own terms absolutely why not enroll in a creative writing program, or some sort of writer&#8217;s workshop?  If the University as a mode of education has really been &#8220;inherently worthless&#8221; for you, then you probably need to re-examine why you&#8217;re there at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Art</title>
		<link>http://www.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8948</link>
		<dc:creator>Art</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:27:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dev.ryanholiday.net/rules-for-radicals-working-within-the-system/#comment-8948</guid>
		<description>Ryan, this is my personal favorite of yours since the very first one--I love the logic.  I use a different perspective though.

&quot;There is nothing noble about taking some ludicrous stand on something you have no possibility of coming through on&quot;.

And then there&#039;s the inherent worthwhileness of going all the way with what you think is right and most true, despite all common sense and what every other person thinks.

Recall &quot;If&quot; by Rudyard Kipling:

&quot;If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you

But make allowance for their doubting too&quot;

If you stop what is evolving your thinking because of what other people (all authority figures, especially) tell you because they see &quot;an inherent flaw&quot; in your thinking, when it is in fact brainstorming/holistic thinking in a creative effort attempt, then you simply aren&#039;t mature enough or haven&#039;t made the decision of what matters to you: marks/money/job security or creative expression (which, btw, logically leads to more of the later two in the long run)?

Unless you are aiming for a scholarship of some type, you could do as I do and deliberately tell the teacher &quot;I&#039;m planning to become a writer, and will add in creative measures into my work to increase my knowledge and express myself to have more fun, is that okay?&quot;--&gt; and then state literally on the paper how inherently worthless University education has been for me and STILL GET 90% on it, lol.

I did that and am getting 87% in a course right now, ignoring rules I consider not worth my effort such as APA format for referencing and other miscellaneous rules (worth a trivial amount of marks).  You have to decide what is worth more to you.

Ryan is writing from a perspective that shows that marks is important; I just showed you how it works when you are willing to take the risk to simply be yourself throughout your essays/assignments--if I get an 85% or a 70% or a 60% what do I care?  I don&#039;t--it&#039;s more valuable to me that I can develop my ability to write creatively.  And from what I read from you, you seem to be the same way.  Take what you like from whomever but ultimately follow your own inuition.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ryan, this is my personal favorite of yours since the very first one&#8211;I love the logic.  I use a different perspective though.</p>
<p>&#8220;There is nothing noble about taking some ludicrous stand on something you have no possibility of coming through on&#8221;.</p>
<p>And then there&#8217;s the inherent worthwhileness of going all the way with what you think is right and most true, despite all common sense and what every other person thinks.</p>
<p>Recall &#8220;If&#8221; by Rudyard Kipling:</p>
<p>&#8220;If you can keep your head when all about you</p>
<p>Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,</p>
<p>If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you</p>
<p>But make allowance for their doubting too&#8221;</p>
<p>If you stop what is evolving your thinking because of what other people (all authority figures, especially) tell you because they see &#8220;an inherent flaw&#8221; in your thinking, when it is in fact brainstorming/holistic thinking in a creative effort attempt, then you simply aren&#8217;t mature enough or haven&#8217;t made the decision of what matters to you: marks/money/job security or creative expression (which, btw, logically leads to more of the later two in the long run)?</p>
<p>Unless you are aiming for a scholarship of some type, you could do as I do and deliberately tell the teacher &#8220;I&#8217;m planning to become a writer, and will add in creative measures into my work to increase my knowledge and express myself to have more fun, is that okay?&#8221;&#8211;> and then state literally on the paper how inherently worthless University education has been for me and STILL GET 90% on it, lol.</p>
<p>I did that and am getting 87% in a course right now, ignoring rules I consider not worth my effort such as APA format for referencing and other miscellaneous rules (worth a trivial amount of marks).  You have to decide what is worth more to you.</p>
<p>Ryan is writing from a perspective that shows that marks is important; I just showed you how it works when you are willing to take the risk to simply be yourself throughout your essays/assignments&#8211;if I get an 85% or a 70% or a 60% what do I care?  I don&#8217;t&#8211;it&#8217;s more valuable to me that I can develop my ability to write creatively.  And from what I read from you, you seem to be the same way.  Take what you like from whomever but ultimately follow your own inuition.</p>
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